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+---- Thread: how do I mourn what never lived (/showthread.php?tid=10702)
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 02-24-2025
She kept the shock from her face with practiced effort, schooling it into open interest lacking any judgement. Elizabeth was quickly realizing the deep-seated beliefs Maea held, using anything and everything to rationalize her own distaste for bloodlust and killing. If she had to guess, the Ancient would prefer to never eat meat again, wasting away to stone. It was quite a conundrum, considering she sat before her, obviously not a statue.
It was going to take a lot of time and in-depth conversations to fully understand Maea's self-loathing, but Elizabeth began with their analogy. [say]"The problem with that comparison is that animals - and people - are driven by more than basic desires. They are just that - the bare minimum. When a tiger is given a choice between a friend (deer or not) and a creature with which they have no connection, they will always choose the later. Why is that? Because although they know their friend is technically food, they have an emotional bond with them. As humans, imagine how much stronger that relationship is."[/say] Analogies were something that would always have fallacies and loopholes, however, for some, they helped them navigate the world, giving it reference and comparison to understand.
That wouldn't be the case when it came to whatever emotions plagued Maea when she ate. Humming, the therapist took a bite of her croissant, trying to separate the feelings from the facts. [say]"Is it wrong to enjoy food? It sustains the body and makes us feel healthy and strong. We don't have to find joy in the means or methods, but we can't blame our body's reaction to having its needs met, just as we can't control the relief when we drink a glass of water in the desert."[/say] Not that an Ancient would mind the heat, yet the comparison stood. The real question was, where was the 'pleasure' coming from?
Taking a slow, contemplative sip of her tea, Elizabeth let her eyes fall over her companion. There was no malice or cunning in her observation, just calm inquisition to help Maea explore whatever it was she thought she believed about bloodlust and Ancients. [say]"I wonder, if there was a little Ancient girl sitting before you - asking the same questions - what would you say? Would you call her an 'abomination' for existing?"[/say] She set her tea down, giving her full attention to hear what she might say, to know how deep the self-hatred went.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 02-24-2025
Biting at the inside of her cheek, Maea listened with her gaze on the table. There was a logic to what the therapist was saying, it just didn't quell the pinching sensation in her chest. If only she could put it into words, explain what it was that felt so wrong... The question of how to address a metaphorical child echoed something Danta had once asked her. Flinching, she blinked against a sudden prickling in the eyes. Why was that so hard a question to answer?
[say]"I don't know what I would say,"[/say] she muttered, eyebrows pinching into a scowl. [say]"In theory it shouldn't ever be wrong to follow ones nature. But... it's like..."[/say] Sighing in frustration she gasped for some example. [say]"I grew up on a farm. We had sheep, and sometimes I had to help with the slaughter. I didn't like it. Watching the animals die felt awful and sad, and getting blood on my hands made me shudder. The smell made me nauseous, and it was a relief to wash up afterwards. Now, I feel nothing about taking down a deer, or a sheep. Only a kind of... satisfaction. The scent of the blood make me hungry, not nauseous, and having it on my skin is like touching water. It feels... wrong that I don't feel bad?. Like there is something in my head that doesn't work as it should anymore."[/say]
Almost whispering, it was hard to keep her emotions in check. Maea felt raw where she sat, questioning why she was doing this even as she spoke. [say]"Maybe a real tiger will know the difference between a friend and a meal, and a child would be taught from the beginning what is right and safe, but I'm not..."[/say] a real Ancient. Not a child, with guardians to show the way. Just a sheep in a wolf' skin, trying to keep running with the flock. [say]"What if I stop being able to tell the difference between people and prey? It would be very wrong to enjoy eating someone I'm supposed to protect, and cherish. I... it feels like I'm going crazy. Like I'm one mistake away from becoming something that no one can excuse or forgive..."[/say] Murderer, cannibal, Monster. It was probably stupid, to lay bare her sins like this. What did she know about this woman? Nothing. There was no guarantee that she wouldn't be persecuted for what she was saying. Elizabeth was from Halo; she would know all about how the cannibals of Whitebrim had been dealt with, and it would be so easy to draw parallells between them and the Ancients. Maybe no one else remembered, but Maea could not forget having been a target before, being locked up and looked down upon, facing the cold reality that she was not who she ought to be...
Unwanted. Unasked for. Insufficient. Unneeded. Gods, but she didn't want to be put back in that cage again.
[say]"I don't know what to do."[/say]
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 02-25-2025
Her eyes and ears took in every piece of information as Maea spoke. Even the smallest of cues told her the depths of the Ancient's troubles. The glimmering of tears and avoidance of her question spoke volumes more. Little of what she said would break through the wall she'd built.
There was a fear - a fear of becoming a monster that was ingrained so deep that it consumed her very identity. The real question was: where had it come from? She talked of reveling in her kills as an Ancient, but that didn't seem like it would be strong enough to cause such a reaction. No. There was something else. Elizabeth just had to figure out the right questions to ask.
Keeping the atmosphere calm and open, she took another slow sip of tea. [say]"Let me ask you this: what makes someone a monster?"[/say] Her warm brown eyes looked to Maea, wondering how she might define the term, and whether or not she already thought herself one.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 02-25-2025
The question took her by enough surprise that Maea actually looked up, forced out of the dark spiraling in order to think. The cider was growing cold, but it still moistened her mouth; it had been a while since she talked this much with anyone.
[say]"A monster? I think..."[/say] Really, she did have to consider for a while. The image was so clear in her mind that she forgot not everyone could see it. [say]"Someone who... doesn't care. A person who can't, or won't, treasure the life and well-being of others, or take them into consideration, and uses them for their own benefit. A being that takes pleasure in causing fear, pain and death, and makes excuses for why it's needful or necessary when it never should be. One who... sets themself over the community, and won't – or can't – be reasoned with, or compromise."[/say]
Images of bloody claws and gnashing teeth crossed her mind, and a recollection of dread, inescapable somethings that lurked in the dark, stalking past blackened windows and scratching on barred doors. Certain death, ultimate terror, the worst things that went bump in the night – and superimposed over that darkness lay a vision of herself, naked atop a pile of bones, dripping with blood, head thrown back in ecstacy while chewing, chewing on the flesh of a loved one. Not knowing, not caring about the sin, the crime, the awful sadness – too lost in the dark revelry to even notice.
[say]"Someone... wretched and insane, that can only destroy whatever they touch..."[/say]
It was an awful image. Shuddering, Maea rubbed her eyes, face gone pale and drawn; would that she could banish it forever, but truth was it never truly left.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 02-25-2025
Happy to break out of the analogies and cycle of spiraling thoughts, she took mental notes of Maea's points, noticing how some were rooted on nature, while others were based in decisions and lack of empathy. This she could work with. Lifting her hands to take another sip of tea, she tilted her head curiously. [say]"Would you say that being a monster is a choice then?"[/say]
While Maea thought on her answer for the question, Elizabeth moved to set down her mug, accidentally placing it on the end of the cloth. She let out an exasperated sigh as she shifted the ceramic towards the table. [say]"Sorry. Could you do me a favor? This wrap keeps coming undone."[/say] She offered out her hand and the makeshift bandage that refused to stay put, the edge unrolling to expose the reddened skin beneath. It was still slightly damp to cool the burn, but it didn't do a lot of good when she kept moving it to drink from her tea.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 02-26-2025
Unsure where they were going with this, Maea nevertheless obliged and considered again. That one was harder, less easily defined. [say]"I think... There are times when it's not? I think there are those who become that way because they have a sickness of the mind. And other times monsters are made, created out of circumstances of their upbringing, the environment they live in.
"But... I don't know. No matter how sick one is, or how hard it's been, or how good it feels, there should be an element of choice somewhere. Whether you allow yourself to give in to impulse or not, whether you set those needs above the safety of everyone else, whether you put yourself in a position where you can act on them or not... Ultimately I think a monster is a monster because somewhere they stopped trying not to be, in which case it is, or because they were pushed past the ability to make that choice, in which case it is not."[/say]
Perhaps that was a harsh take. Reaching over to wrap Elizabeth's hand with the towel, Maea kept turning the question over in her mind, searching for some other way to see things. But in the end, that was what she believed.
Tying a knot and tucking in the ends of the improvised bandage like how Isla had taught her once upon a time, she sat back in her chair. [say]"There. Is that better?"[/say]
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 02-26-2025
The practiced maneuver of Maea's hands told her enough about the Ancient's experience and willingness to help others, confirming what she'd already come to suspect. Elizabeth gave her a grateful smile, lifting her hand to admire the snug material in the cozy lighting. [say]"Perfect. Thank you."[/say] With her bandage secure, she was free to take another relaxed bite of her croissant as she listened about monsters.
Maea not be able to see where things were going, but Elizabeth had a course in mind, a path of thought that might help the Ancient realize her misguided thoughts. As she finished her analysis of choice vs. nature, the therapist hummed. She organized the definitions and explanations into a concise paraphrase of her own. [say]"So, monsters are disturbed beings that choose their depraved desires over the care or welfare of others. Everything they touch is left in torment from their selfish decisions, but they lack the empathy to care. They're sole concerns are their own needs and satisfactions. Whether from upbringing or desensitization, they slowly lose the ability to make that choice for themselves. Does that sound about right?"[/say] Despite the dark topic, her eyes remained clear of judgement or disgust, a soft warmth to them that spoke of her willingness to understand.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 02-26-2025
It sounded a bit different, though Maea couldn't pinpoint exactly how. Perhaps it was simply the summary, or hearing the words without the usual complex turmoil of emotion attached. Licking her lips a had uncertainly, Maea nodded in the end, unable to find a better way to phrase things.
[say]"I – yes, that would be a good summary."[/say]
Maybe it was the evil connotation that was lacking. The sinister intent, the aura of doom and despair... Ah, but that really came from the other side, didn't it? Being subjected to the monster, forced to confront it, the one who had to live with the consequences of its actions. The helplessness and frustration, the fear, the loneliness in the face of overwhelming odds...
Where was Elizabeth going with this?
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 02-28-2025
She was happy to hear Maea agree with her, a succinct nod of her head tying a bow over the definition. It would give them a basis to work from, something to compare to when they dove further into Maea's self-identity. Rather than push aimlessly at analogies and ideologies, they had a reference point to work with. Now they had to make the scale.
Elizabeth tapped a finger against her mug, watching the shift in Maea's demeanor. They were working away from the 'personal' for the moment, and she kept it clinical, avoiding any discussion of feelings or experiences. Just labels being clarified between two people. [say]"Now, how would you define a predator?"[/say]
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 02-28-2025
With curiosity mounting, this time Maea answered directly. [say]"Something or someone who consume another being for sustenance. In animals it might be a carnivore hunting to sustain themselves. In people, it can be more psychological - I've never heard the term refer to anything wholesome or positive in the case of people."[/say] Sexual predators came to mind, narcissists too, and in the case of certain Ancients she knew the line between animal and man blurred quite significantly.
Regarding Elizabeth, she absently nibbled on the pie, too distracted to reflect on what she put in her mouth. [say]"Where are we going with this?"[/say] she had to ask, wiping a crumb from the corner of her mouth. No doubt it had a purpose; the therapist didn't strike her as someone who did anything without a reason.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 03-01-2025
Nodding her head, she swallowed another bite of croissant. [say]"I suppose we can agree that predators are 'hunters,' beings with a singular goal to satisfy a need or desire. Certainly, the human version of a predator isn't often tasteful, but let's focus more on the animal version of the term. Maybe we'll delve into that other light topic another day."[/say] Her smile was playful as she dismissed that particular part. It wouldn't be helpful to bring up the 'psychological predators.'
Maea's question made her sit up a little straighter. She wasn't going to lay it all out, but she could at least speed along the point. [say]"Well, you'll notice that 'predators' sound similar to 'monsters.' However, they're not quite the same."[/say] Elizabeth lifted a finger as she addressed the main question. [say]"I want to know: what would you say the difference between the two are?"[/say] Her head tilted, interested to hear what the Ancient may say.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 03-01-2025
Agreeing with the definition, Maea nodded. It was more neatly phrased from Elizabeth's lips and matched her own sentiment quite well. For a moment, lines furrowed her brow at excluding the human aspect. It seemed quite important, given that the subject in question - herself - was human, too. But at least there was a chance to address it at a later time, so Maea decided not to object.
Starting to pick up on the gentle but firm logic dissection she was being subjected to, pale eyes bored into Elizabeth's. Brief flashes of dismay and stubborn rebellion flared up in her mind, and it took some time to convince herself that she wasn't actually being manipulated. At least not for a bad purpose.
Looking away, out through the window to the whirling snow, then down at the tart - there was only a bite or two left - Maea hummed.
[say]"Need,"[/say] she replied, more quietly from before. [say]"The predator hunts because it has to, in order to survive. The monster... because it can. And wishes to. For no particular reason."[/say] Out of boredom, perhaps, or for the pleasure of causing pain.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Elizabeth - 03-01-2025
Elizabeth could understand how Maea might feel 'manipulated,' although she would never endorse such a term. She preferred 'guidance' or 'leading,' like a horse to water or, in her case, a person to logic. That's essentially what therapists were, an unbiased person to help untangle and rectify any misguided thoughts.
Returning to her tea, Elizabeth nodded her head along with the comparison. It was exactly what she would have said. [say]"Okay. So, with that in mind, how would you categorize yourself?"[/say] Not wanting Maea to feel judged or like there was a right or wrong answer, she simply took a slow sip of her tea, waiting patiently with an open expression.
RE: how do I mourn what never lived - Maea - 03-01-2025
She should have seen that one coming. Nevertheless, the question made her flinch and again her gaze took refuge in the scenery outside. She missed the days when she'd walked the streets of Halo with Ludo's shawl draped about her shoulders. Missed the clean air, the biting cold and the stern beauty of its vast landscape. Everything felt muddled here, in comparison. Messy and chaotic, impossible to overlook...
[say]"Somewhere just in between the two,"[/say] she said faintly. [say]"It's very tempting, you know. To let go, and stop trying. I did that once, and... there weren't really any consequences. Maybe the world is so used to monsters that one more or less doesn't make a difference."[/say] Tracing patterns in condensation beading on the table, she wondered absently what Alys might divine from them. [say]"What's it called... l'appelle du vide? The call of the void. I could just lean back, say it's what pleases my goddess and throw everything to the wind. Some days it is very tempting. The rest of the time, I do what I can to recall why it is better not to."[/say]
It was there, though, at the back of her mind. A certain numbness, a hazy lack of shits to be given. Was it a product of an unstable mind, a response to trauma of her youth, or merely an expression of depression? She didn't know. Couldn't tell. There was only the void, and the silver linings keeping her gaze fixed upwards, and the aching weariness deep in her bones.